As we continue our series of conversations with religious thinkers involved in the arts, contributing editor is speaking this month with Vivien ap Rhys Pryce of Calne, Wiltshire, England. Vivien is a Fellow Member of the Royal Society of British Sculptors. She taught sculpture for several years, and has exhibited throughout her career in London and provincial galleries. A piece of her sculpture was first shown at the Royal Academy, London. Summer Exhibition in 1959, while she was still a student. (Included with this interview are photographs of two pieces of Vivien's sculpture.)
This series highlights the depth of the thought and inspiration that go into artwork, and in this conversation, Vivien explains the impact that prayer has had on her work as a sculptor.
Hazel: Vivien, would you start by telling us something about your work?
Vivien: I have been working as a sculptor most of my life. I feel that it's a way of expressing qualities, good qualities, of beauty, grace, love, and rhythm.
Hazel: Harmony, line, and form, as well. All qualities of divine Soul.
Vivien: Yes, and of divine Mind and Love. And of Life, too, because I certainly like to express a sense of God's activity.
Hazel: These Journal conversations were originally inspired by the words in one of Mrs. Eddy's poems, "Isle of Wight," which includes, "Art and Science, all unweary, Lighting up this mortal dream."
poems, p. 51. Different forms of the arts illuminate the dream of mortal existence, helping to break through the ignorance of what life really is. Are you able to see that happening as you work?
Vivien: Yes, I think so, although I think I mainly realize what's happened after a piece is finished. I don't stop beforehand and say, "This piece is going to express Life." But the qualities seem to come as one is working. I pray before I begin more than during my work-unless I come up against a particular problem. But I think there's a continual desire to see more of God expressed.
I also feel it's very much a question of responding. Right from my earliest days, I was very aware of the beauties of nature; I responded to what I saw. And then somehow I give back from what I've seen. I can remember being very taken with the passage in Science and Health where Mrs. Eddy speaks about Love bathing everything in beauty, the sunlight beautifying the landscape.
See Science and Health p. 516. Also, a passage in her Miscellaneous Writings means a lot to me: "My sense of the beauty of the universe is, that beauty typifies holiness, and is something to be desired.... The pleasant sensations of human belief, of form and color, must be spiritualized, until we gain the glorified sense of substance as in the new heaven and earth, the harmony of body and Mind." And she says: "Even the human conception of beauty, grandeur, and utility is something that defies a sneer. It is more than imagination. It is next to divine beauty and the grandeur of Spirit. It lives with our earth-life, and is the subjective state of high thoughts."
"Mis., p. 86.
That's what I mean about responding. I see the beauty of a tree, the strength of a tree, the lines of a tree, and then I attempt to say something about these concepts through sculpture. Because to me the content of sculpture is not just the figure itself but a particular concept as well. And so, for example, my small sculptures of dancers have to convey a feeling of movement, and not just present figures dancing. This, I think, is why I like to do human figures, because there has to be an expression of humanity as well as the sculptural form, balance, line, whatever.
Hazel: I think what you're saying is that art incorporates the divine hues. We all can value what art represents as the evidence of Soul, the expression of Mind, and the activity of Life. And really to value art in this way is to glorify God, isn't it? And as we value it and allow our consciousness to be illumined by it, then we are helping humanity.
Vivien: It's really us expressing God's creative power. Man reflects Him. And if we say we reflect the Father-Mother, well, we surely should reflect the creator's creative qualities! I think there's often a feeling that there are certain people who are artists, and then there are people who are just ordinary people; and I feel that's not right. We're all expressing creativity, aren't we, in different ways? It's been given to me to do sculpture, but to somebody else is given something else.
You're not creating as such. You're reflecting the creator and sharing what you discover. Because I find when I'm working it's a discovery. You try to communicate it, and you hope people will enjoy what you've discovered.
Hazel: And I think if we go to art in expectancy of finding and discovering something new, it does light up for us. We need never lose that sense of wonder and surprise. In one of the biographies of Mrs. Eddy, there is a story that one of her students put two roses on a little stand for her. Mrs. Eddy said how beautiful they were. And then she said, "The world is more beautiful to me than to anyone else who lives in it because I see more of God reflected in everything."
Clifford P. Smith, Historical Sketches (Boston: The Christian Science Publishing Society, 1941), pp. 137-138.
Vivien: That's interesting. We need to see things in a different way, a more spiritual way.
Art can be very self-indulgent, can't it? And yet it should be selfless. It should be done from the right motives. Sometimes in the past when I've done something and it has sold very well, I've thought, "Oh, that was good, I must do another one." But I find if I do it from that motive it doesn't work out. It has really been quite a lesson. I've got to work from the sense of wonder, freshness, and discovery.
Hazel: Mind doesn't have to repeat itself, does it? Every-thing is fresh and new. The Bible records God saying, "I make all things new."
Rev. 21:5.
Vivien: That's not to say that I don't find certain themes that one can go on expressing in different ways. But each piece has to have its own identity.
Hazel: And you will have learned from the last piece, so you can approach the subject with a different outlook. And prayerful listening is very important in your work, isn't it?
Vivien: Yes. I don't separate my work from prayer. When I pray and study in the morning, it blesses everything I do that day. And I can't say I've ever found a lack of ideas-for instance, artist's block. Occasionally I've had to persist! Sometimes when I have had commissions, the idea hasn't come immediately. But I think it's very helpful to realize that every idea is complete; that it is there, waiting to be seen and expressed.
Hazel: It's interesting that you said you don't have artist's block despite the need to persist in listening for ideas. Maybe some would see that as artist's block, but it actually isn't. God is saying, "Look, there is a way to do it." He's showing us a new way, isn't He? It requires listening for Mind's unfoldment.
Vivien: And then, I think, being willing to do the labor, to bring the expression of the idea to completeness. That's another quality that one has to use. I feel if you're giving work out to people and they're paying for it and so on, it's got to be the most wonderful work you can do. To express what you want to say the best way that you can.
Hazel: As religious thinkers in the arts, we find it's the spiritual impetus that gives motivation to our work. As a religious thinker, you naturally relate to God. How do you feel that, as an artist, one can help others to recognize that relationship?
Vivien: Well, I think it goes back to what you're expressing in your art. Because you can express very negative things, very harsh and disgusting things. But we need to express the highest qualities. That's not to say a work of art couldn't have bad qualities in it, but it should come through with a positive message. But I feel that I try to lift thought up to God.
Hazel: What do you feel about artists who seek to shock the public?
Vivien: If people are merely shocked into a sort of rejection of good or of society, then surely this is not doing anything positive.
Hazel: Sometimes artists present things which are meant to shock, but not necessarily for the right reasons. Yet awakening thought can be helpful. If art is lighting up the mortal dream, there's got to be an awakening from that dream, and art can help to do this.
Vivien: Again, it goes back to the qualities that one's ex-pressing; sometimes these can gently lift thought. Like the sculpture of a mother and child-it's just a happy, peaceful object, and people get a good feeling from looking at it.
Hazel: Because it represents grace and affection as well as form and line.
You said that you've been doing this for quite a number of years. How has your approach to your work developed as your understanding of your relationship to God has grown?
Vivien: I think I've become more humble about my work. Many youngsters, perhaps just starting out, can be very arrogant and self-centered about what they're doing, feeling: "I'm going to be a great artist. Everyone's going to notice my work." But I think you grow into a feeling of service.
Hazel: That's an interesting word, service.
Vivien: Well, I think it is service. I'm a servant in the household of God. And this applies not only to sculpture but to everything in my life. For example, I serve where I am a church member. Seeing myself as serving God also helps with the belief of competition, which can be very strong. You realize that you have your own individual work to do.
Hazel: Your work is not dependent upon anyone else. They can't rob you of yours, and you can't rob them of theirs.
Vivien: Realizing that has been very helpful.
Hazel: I think, also, that through understanding God's infinite nature we recognize that there's sufficient good for all.
Vivien: And that every idea has its right fulfillment.
Hazel: There can't be such a thing, then, as an idea that isn't complete. In a way, your work is rather like taking an idea that is invisible and bringing it into visibility.
Vivien: Yes. You think through an idea and then express it. And certainly I can dwell on an idea, ponder it and alter it in my thinking, before I go into the studio and actually begin expressing it as a piece of sculpture.
Hazel: And if we're awake and aware, then there are always ideas at hand for us to use.
Vivien: Perhaps that's how art is lighting up the dream; it is making people more aware of things.
Hazel: When I went to the Royal Academy recently to see an exhibition of paintings by Monet, a wonderful lesson was awaiting. I recall seeing numerous "Water Lilies'" all painted in different atmospheric conditions, the same subject reflected differently in changing light. Monet's absorption in really seeing his subject, rather than just looking at it on the surface, is an exercise in perception one can learn from. The question is, "Do we really see what we're looking at?" It's not so much what we're looking at that matters most; it's what we're seeing that's important. The unlimited beauty of God's creation is always present for us to see. Do you feel that your work challenges thought to recognize a higher view of life?
Vivien: Yes, in a gentle sort of way. I don't think it has a particularly dramatic effect! But I still feel very responsive to the beauties of nature, marvelous shapes of flowers, and those sorts of things. And then, as I say, I try to express the beautiful qualities. It kind of "comes in and goes out."
Hazel: Does your expression of art feel coincident with your expression of Christian Science, or do you feel that it conflicts in any way?
Vivien: No, it doesn't conflict. In fact, in my earlier days, my understanding of Christian Science was an anchor and stopped me from going over-board, in being rebellious and so on. Because I think one can be startled at the impact of what the material senses present to us. Mrs. Eddy writes, "Both Jew and Gentile may have had acute corporeal senses, but mortals need spiritual sense."
Science and Health, p. 85. Christian Science helps us to exchange the material sense picture for the reality which the spiritual sense reveals to us.
Hazel: While lighting up the mortal dream, we have to recognize the spiritual truth of being and the Godlike qualities that are present within each one. Christ Jesus knew that Soul expresses itself fully in man. And we can recognize that every individual naturally includes that light of Soul within him.
I sometimes hear of artists going through difficult times and not selling much. Yet by recognizing that humanity does appreciate the Soul-qualities, you see a bond, a divine law, bringing together the demand and the supply. And this recognition of the spiritual senses within man is really an acknowledgment of the Christ.
It's comforting to realize that the light of true being is unfolding everywhere, all the time. And that the art world can make a special contribution to this. I think your contribution is going a long way in helping to awaken thought to divine qualities.
Vivien: I certainly feel that God has been at my side, helping me in my work. And at each stage of my career, God's guidance has brought so many blessings. I feel He has given me good work to do, and as I faithfully do it, He gives me all I need for it.
